National rally 2009

[achandler]

I was on the Committee in 2005 when we were discussing the venue for the 2006 National Rally. Originally the intention was to have the Rally in the South East of England. It quickly became clear that the costs would be horrendous. Most suitable venues wanted to charge the Club for the use of their grounds, and hotel costs would be out of the question for most members. Eventually the site at The Attwell-Wilson Museum at Calne was chosen, and I think it worked out very well.
It should be remembered that, as someone else has reminded us, the RSR National Rally is a fairly recent event, and maybe it should be time to allow it to drop from the Calendar again, if it is starting to cause controversy. It is not as though there is nothing else to attend during the year.
Tony Atkins and a small team worked their socks off to produce two splendid and memorable events in 2003 and 2004, but they were to mark two very special occasions, and until another really suitable occasion arises, maybe it is time to give the poor Committee one less thing to worry about?

[richard moss]

.well hopefully there'll be a field full of the best in the world!

Rovers are fine cars but if that's all there is then I think we're looking at a case of tunnel vision, with an elitist twist. I love rovers, but I also love looking at classic Fords, MGs, Vauxhalls, Triumphs, Jaguars, Japanese cars, motorbikes etc. and cutting ourselves off from other cars does us no favours. Going to a multi-make event gives you the opportunity to be surprised and delighted at seeing a car you'd never seen before or forgotten about - for example I loved seeing an Avenger Tiger at cars in the Park as I'd not seen one for years.

Criticism of the venue I'm afraid comes across as you wanting a venue to suit you and your situation which would inevitably mean someone else would not be getting their preferred venue, is this any fairer?

I'm sorry you don't like the idea of a member of the club expressing an opinion that differs from yours or that of the committee. I'll try to remember not to speak out in future. I thought this club was for ALL the members, as such my input is as valuable as that of anyone else. Criticism of the event venue is perfectly valid - after all, as a paid up member a part of my membership fee goes towards supporting this event. The fact that this venue suits you but does not suit me doesn't make you right and me wrong. Maybe I'm in the wrong club if that sort of attitude prevails here.

All other classic car clubs of which I've been a member (Mini, MG and Triumph) make an effort to choose a motoring related location for their MOTORING club. Almost any other location has something for "her indoors" whilst concentrating upon motoring as the main theme.

I think the comment re recession was perhaps ill judged, I lived and worked through the late 80's recession/falling house prices and the early 70's strikes/rampant inflation so many of us have been here before and to suggest those at the helm have not given some thought to those who are struggling is I think unfair. I well remember struggling then just as you no doubt are now.

What does the history lesson have to do with anything? The fact that you are not having a hard time financially now might be OK for you, but doesn't help me! I remember the 1980s and 1990s recessions, thanks very much - I was working through both of them. I also remember what a struggle it was for my parents to raise a family of four boys during the 1970s - but with a little imagination they were always able to arrange low cost family holidays every year. The financial situation IS very relevant right now and raising that as a part of my concern is not "ill advised". Shall we just ignore the financial troubles an hope they'll go away? Would you like me to see if I can get a bank loan to attend the event? I appreciate that the demographic profile of the RSR is (how shall I put it?) more "mature" than many others - but if we don't get younger members into the club AND MAKE THEM FEEL WELCOME then the club will go the way of the dodo and the dinosaurs. Hell, at 43 I'm one of the club babies and that can't be right!

I am genuinely sorry you will not attend as they say "the loss of one diminishes us all" but please try and cut the committe some slack, they are, I'm sure, genuine people who have to balance and juggle to suit the needs of all.

As you said, there are venues that you wouldn't attend so it should come as no surprise to you that some members don't want to go to this one. I fully appreciate that the committee are doing their best - and I have cut them some slack. I just feel that they have missed the point here - this is a motoring club, not the National Trust. The NT is there for people who want to look at old houses and if that was what I was into I'd join the NT. I'm not into old houses though, I'm into cars (particularly Rovers) and that's why I joined the RSR. Organising the national event at a non-motoring venue with no other motoring interest there completely misses the point, in my view.

There, that's my view - and whether or not you think I'm being awkward, I'm entitled to hold it and express it.

[47p2]

...................it was decided that the National Rally should move around the country to a different venue each year and give everyone a chance of attending a rally near to themRegards
Andrew McGovern
Pre 1950 Archivist

By moving around the country I presume you mean moving around England?

[partviking]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that a mistake has been made in the choice of location for the 2009 event?

Perhaps it's me but whilst the above is clearly expressing an opinion it also criticism and had a venue been chosen to suit your requirements then others may not of found that suitable. That would be unfair on them just as this is unfair on you so had the venue been switched to suit your criteria would this have been any better. Have you offered an alternative so at least we know what sort of venue would suit you?

Rovers are fine cars but if that's all there is then I think we're looking at a case of tunnel vision, with an elitist twist.

So why did you join a Rover club? I don't particulaly want to look at other makes so i joined a Rover club, there are numerous all make clubs out there or is this something else the club must change. Whilst I am glad you joined I don't want the Rover club to become a 'all car' club.

What does the history lesson have to do with anything? The fact that you are not having a hard time financially now might be OK for you, but doesn't help me!

Again an assumption that is unfair. For the record my wife has just been made redundant and is struggling to find another job. So like many others we are suffering reduced expendable income the difference is I don't want to spoil the weekend for those that are fortunate enough to be able to afford it, or change the club to suit my position. By making posts of this nature which are clearly 'personal' does your contributions no credit.

The financial situation IS very relevant right now and raising that as a part of my concern is not "ill advised".

Maybe, but suggesting the committee were in some kind of ivory tower and not aware of whats going on in the real world was. You do not know what their personal circumstances are and it could well be they are in a worse financial position than yourself. Sorry but I still regard the comment and the later one aimed at me personally 'ill advised'.

I just feel that they have missed the point here - this is a motoring club, not the National Trust.

It is a motoring club but it's members have many and varied interests and i would suggest a large number of them like National Trust type locations so they should not be discounted but an occassional venue. You seem to suggest they should be removed completly as you and your family do not find them suitable. If you are happy for them to stay on the calendar than why express an 'opinion' in the first place?

There, that's my view - ....... I'm entitled to hold it and express it.

I couldn't agree more but can I ask what you are actually trying to achieve by expressing it? You say you understand the position of the committee and then continue to find fault with their decisions. Other than agreeing with another poster about a swop round of the days on this weekend you have yet to suggest an alternative.
So why not suggest a suitable location for next year, taking into account the criteria (ie somewhere further North as this year is in the South) and submit it to the committee for consideration? Why not post it here then we can all 'consider' it and I'm sure you'll have no problem with people 'expressing their opnions' about your choice though I'm sure you'll do your best to take into account the needs of us 'all'.

[richard moss]

What I am trying to achieve by expressing my opinion is to say that I think a mistake has been made in the choice of location for the national event. It struck me as rather odd that a location with so little motoring-related interest should have been selected. I'm not trying to say "pick a location to suit me" rather I'm trying to say if we had a location that had more motoring interest then it would suit more members.

As for suggesting alternatives, well right back at the start I suggested the Haynes Museum at Sparkford and another poster confirmed that this is indeed a good location for such an event. With a little research I could have come up with a load more but given that the decision has been made and bookings confirmed there would be little in me doing so. Of course, if you really want me to I'm sure I can come up with a few more places that we won't be going to! If the committee wish to receive suggestions for next year then I am sure that I and other members will be happy to make suggestions. I'm sure that, for example, the Beamish Museum in county Durham holds more than enough interest for the whole family, as does the Tramway museum in Crich, Derbyshire, The National Railway museum in York (loads of old buildings in York for heritage spotters) and so on. John Turner will probably be able to suggest a location or two in Scotland - and I can dig around my memory banks from my time living in Troon to see if I can think of something.

I don't recall the club membership being invited to contribute suggestions for the venue for 2009 - maybe I missed that but I do feel that the membership should have that courtesy extended to them in future. The suggestions may not be practical or suitable, but 800+ members should be able to suggest a venue or two. I'm not suggesting that we vote upon the choice - that would probably be unworkable - be at least we would have had a voice.

Why did I join a Rover club? Well, because I own a ROVER! However, owning a Rover is not like being married to it - I am allowed to enjoy other cars too (I own an MG and a Jaguar, for example). A wife may get upset at their husband looking at other women, but I doubt that my Sterling will throw a strop if I look at a Triumph Stag. Many RSR members own cars that were not made by Rover or even one of it's sister companies and that can only be a good thing in the long run.Limiting my sphere of interest to one make would, in my opinion, make for a very dull outlook on life. Part of the joy of being a motoring enthusiast is that the world is full of many and varied makes and models. If I follow your logic through, as a member of the RSR you should also have no interest in old houses!

However, I never once suggested that the RSR should become an all-makes club and I see no need for it to do so. That said, I was unaware that signing up to the RSR included a stipulation that I'm not allowed to enjoy other cars (which is what you seem to infer)!

As for criticising the choice of event then yes, that is exactly what I'm doing. again, I can't see anything in the RSR rules that says I'm not allowed to have an opinion of my own and to express it - even if that means criticising the decisions made by the committee. Remember, the committee are there to serve the club not the other way around. I appreciate the committee's hard work, I understand that it's all voluntary and unpaid and thank them for their efforts and their dedication. However, no-one should be above criticism. The RSR is not some kind of benevolent dictatorship where Big Brother makes a decision and any disagreement is regarded as "thought crime" (at least I hope not).

You seem to suggest that whilst it's OK to have an opinion, it's wrong for me to voice that (which boils down to being the same thing as having no opinion)! If that's the way you feel, then be prepared to be disappointed because I won't keep quiet just to keep you happy!

[Phil - Nottingham]

I have voiced my opinions in the past on may things and the National.regional rallies in particular but that is what forums are for and members should be encouraged to voice their opinion without being accused of critising those that do the very hard work of organising things and rallies do not happen on their own.

It has moved round the UK now apart from Scotland so perhaps something else is needed for a change - times change and so must the club if its to survive.

I must confess I do not know what to do now though - one car rallies do not really excite me anymore - different though when over 200 are assembled as used to be in the past quite often - there was a good turn out of Rovers when it was held at Wroughton several years ago.

We still must cooperate with other Rover clubs although it takes both sides to do this too.

We will not be attending this year as its too far for health and inclination to warrant it but I do wish it all the success and good weather

[Richard Clements]

I have read this thread from start to finish, I think things are being taken a little too personally here,

As I understand it Rich M is suggesting that maybe the format for the Rallies not just the National but rallies in general needs to be looked at, obviously 2009 it's too late for that to happen.

I am fully aware that this is how the Rallies have been run for many years without issue but things change and the format needs to change also, as Phil mentions in his post above there used to be over 200 participants in these rallies, there isn't anymore and any organisation needs to step back and think OK why is this? what can we do to reverse the trend. I speak from 20+ years membership of cycling clubs and trust me these issues are not just restricted to the RSR.

From my 20+ years of club membership I always found it the same old few that would organise events and spend lots of their own spare time for the club for no rewards whilst others did nothing and just grumbled, so with that in mind I am quite prepare to get stuck in and help in anyway I can but I think that dialog is a two way thing and perhaps the RSR needs to accept the fact it needs to change to reverse the trend of decline.

[partviking]

Why did I join a Rover club? Well, because I own a ROVER! However, owning a Rover is not like being married to it - I am allowed to enjoy other cars too (I own an MG and a Jaguar, for example).

Of course you are but there are numerous other clubs and events that cater for multiple marques, why should the Rover Club have to have a multiple marque transport related venue for their National Rally? On occassion fine thats all part of the varity but again beacuse it's not happening this year thats not good enough.You have alternatives to attend should you wish in fact the majority of the organised classic car events are multiple marque. As a through and through Roverist i don't have alternatives other than the various clubs National Rallys. I am not trying to stop you attending multiple marque venues, it certainly seems like you're trying to change my one marque venue.

You accuse me of not wanting you to express your opinion or criticise, that is not the case. I am more than happy for opinions to be expressed and fair criticism (a matter of opinion I know) to be expressed. However opinion is one thing and there will be as many opinions as there are members.

What I don't understand is the point of your opening line

Is it just me or does anyone else think that a mistake has been made in the choice of location for the 2009 event?

You have already accepted that it is impossible to please everyone as to location, venue and even date can be subject to disagreement. If we follow the view of yourself (and others who have also added their comments in agreement) where does it all lead? Does it mean every year we have this sort of length of subject going on and on when the reality is there is no answer. Yes there may be 'better' venues but better for who? For low income families? For those with children? For those of us that appreciate fine buildings and gardens? better for one may well mean worse for someone else. Where does it all end?

There is no perfect venue, there is no perfect location therefore it follows every year some people will 'lose out'. Healthy opinion expressed in a fair and reasonable manner is good for any organisation but I belive your opening line was (perhaps deliberately) inflamatory.

Your suggestions for a venue next year seem fine to me but may not for everyone and when someone else writes criticising your selection will that make you 'wrong' or 'mistaken' ? No of course not but it does make you an individual with individual tastes and preferences.


In closing I would say that such an expression of opinion by someone else over your choices for next year would draw just as much support for them and defence of your choice as does Forde Abbey this year as i believe in any organisation there has to be give and take. But sadly as so often in life the takers are not usually so vocal as they are when they feel themselves to be the givers.

This is my last posting on this subject.

[achandler]

I have found this topic fascinating and as someone has said already, it is time to stop personalising it (even in a very subtle way). However, as one who has helped organise three National Rally's (admittedly, not in the UK) may I point out that there is a huge amount of work that goes on behind the scene to try and make these events a success.
It take several months of trying to find the right mix of things for members to enjoy. Picking the site is only part of it, as severel possible venues will have to be examined in detail, as just one "minus" may have to condemn that site, from access, to toilets, local accommodation (including cost of) are all items that can cause that site to be rejected.
The paperwork alone, is quite staggering, leave alone things like insurance and dealing with possible damage to the land-owners fields or lawns if it should rain, and clearing up of litter after the event.
So perhaps we should look less at our personal feelings about the site, and remind ourselves of all the work that goes on behind the scenes, and the members who do their very best to make it an enjoyable occasion. Sometimes they will succeed and sometimes they wont, but they are human like the rest of us.
I say, very many thanks to those who do organise the events that we have enjoyed over the years, including those who have dropped out of the limelight like Mike Jones and Mike Wadman, both of whom organised events for years.

[richard moss]

As a through and through Roverist i don't have alternatives other than the various clubs National Rallys. I am not trying to stop you attending multiple marque venues, it certainly seems like you're trying to change my one marque venue.

It does appear to me that you are deliberately "misunderstanding" me - but that's your perogative. I fear that such an isolationist attitude is bad for the RSR in the long term as it will drive potential new members away. The CITP at Lichfield last year worked - the RSR had its own area and those who wished to ignore other makes could do so. From what I saw, though, the great majority of RSR members enjoyed the presence of other marques at the show. One reason I joined the RSR is to support the club in its efforts to support Rovers. However, I am beginning to wonder if the objective of a fairly part of the RSR membership is to support OLDER Rovers, perhaps seeing the later cars as lesser beings.

In the grand scheme of things the RSR is a small club, largely populated by "mature" members with older cars. If the club is to survive it needs to attract (dare I say it?) younger members with newer cars. Remember, Rovers are no longer in production which means that your target demographic is getting smaller by the day.

Your suggestions for a venue next year seem fine to me but may not for everyone and when someone else writes criticising your selection will that make you 'wrong' or 'mistaken' ? No of course not but it does make you an individual with individual tastes and preferences.

I'm big enough and ugly enough (as the saying goes) to take that criticism. As the founder of the Rover 800 group at http://www.rover800.info/forum I know how difficult it is to please everyone with organising events, but I've organised a couple and several other people have organised more and the one thing I can say is that practically no-one wants to go to an event which is exclusively Rover. If I suggested going to meet up at a stately home that charges for entry and that our cars would be the only other attraction I could say with near certainty that we'd get no takers! We usually seek out (and enjoy) motoring related locations of various kinds - including a bus museum near Birmingham, the transport museum in Coventry, autojumble in Newark, Donnington Park for motorsport meetings, Pride of Longbridge rally and and so on.

I should add that, despite the name of our group, we embrace all cars. Amongst the cars owned and enjoyed by all members you will find Lexus, Jaguar, Renault, MGB, MGC, Metro, Maestro, Montego, Range rover, Land Rover, Vauxhall Omega & Senator, Ford Granada, Rover 200s, 400s, 600s, SD1s and even a 1947 P2! It's more of a "British Car Club" which also embraces any other car marque to boot. Some of the members don't even own an 800 anymore yet stay a part of the group because of its all-inclusive nature.

But sadly as so often in life the takers are not usually so vocal as they are when they feel themselves to be the givers.(

I suspect that are trying to insinuate that I am a taker not a giver - so I'd refer you to my previous statement.

Finally, I have noticed that many RSR members - including some of the powers that be - have seen this thread but not posted (remember, your ONLINE STATUS gives you away!). I'm a little disappointed that no-one from the committee has seen fit to comment.

I guess that's about all I have to say on the matter for now.