Tyre rubbing

RobHomewood
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Tyre rubbing

Post by RobHomewood » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:59 pm

investigating a noise which I thought was possibly a wheel bearing on my 39 14 DHC I found indication that the inside of the nearside rear wheel is rubbing on the bodywork. There is no obvious damage to the tyre yet but obviously cant be left. This seems to occur on some right hand bends . I found the bearing does have a bit of play but not enough I would have thought to cause the wheel to rub. By feel the gap between the inside of the nearside tyre and the body when stationary is about 2 fingers but on the offside it is about 4 fingers width. I would value anyone's advice on whether they have seen this before and/or think the body has moved or could it be tired springs or something else perhaps. Your suggestions apreciated
Rob

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luli
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by luli » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:48 pm

What is the size of your tyres? Have a look under the car and see if the RH and LH springs look the same, or is "flatter" than the other. Also, is the front bumper centered or somewhat offside?
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Rover 10 1946 RHD
Rover 10 1947 LHD
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TonyG
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by TonyG » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:09 am

Rob,

This certainly is a puzzle. As with most oddities like this the cause is either something very obvious, like a wider tyre or badly worn wheel bearing or it is a combination of factors. I suspect the latter, or a bit of both!

Clearly, the body should sit squarely on the chassis and mounted on the axles so that the wheels are equidistant from chassis and bodywork. I doubt the accuracy of this was like a modern car but it sounds as though something is amiss with your Rover if the gaps between wheels and body vary as described. This may be down to mountings on the chassis or the springs and hangers being worn or unmatched, setting the axle a little towards the off-side. Maybe a changed wheel hub even? So, a bit of detailed measuring to compare one side with the other. Most likely, you will find that the car has been like this for a long time.

How badly worn is the near side bearing? The fact that the wheel rubs on right hand bends, when the centrifugal forces would surely push the top of the wheel outwards, suggests something other than a worn bearing. However, if the bearing is bad it might be making a noise under load on the right bends and the rubbing has occurred, less noisily, on left handers?

If the spring hangers, bushes or springs are worn this might allow lateral movement on tight bends so that when the suspension dips on right handers and the tyre top corner articulates it makes contact. Maybe the marks on the body can help indicate if this is what’s happening. Putting the chassis on axle stands and checking for play with a long bar or tyre lever is a cheap and easy place to start.

My thoughts are that the near side wheel has probably been closer to the body for some time and that another cause has resulted in the tyre touching where the tolerance is reduced. Unless the wheel bearing is really bad, I’d focus on the other areas first.

Let us know how you get on.

Tony.
Tony Gilbert

P1 12 Tourer
P2 12 6 Light Saloon
Discovery 3
Discovery Sport

RobHomewood
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by RobHomewood » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:48 pm

Thanks Luli and Tony
The tyres are 525-550/17 as per the handbook so they should fit. I dont understand why the 10 (475) and 12 (525) have smaller circumference if they are using the same body but it cant make that much difference surely? I wondered why Luli was asking about the front bumper until I read his link and then that opened a new can of worms! I have recently replaced the missing tie behind the radiator for the front wings and adjusted the lift on the wings as high as they will go but the nearside wing is still touching the bumper weight.
I shall attempt to take some measurements from body to ground around the 'corners' of the car when standing as I suspect that the springs have never been touched and could have drooped. However my garage floor slopes so that may throw the figures out. And I will give the springs some leverage with the car up on axle stands to test the bushes and mounts.
I suppose that if the bushes need replacing etc then it woudl make sense to rejuvenate the springs whilst they are off but that sounds major. I understand that the old springs can be re-set to the proper curvature but thats not something I could tackle and I will struggle no doubt to find someone locally who can do it.
I wouldnt be surprised if the body has been off-set for some time- it is after all a timber frame and I did notice for instance when working on the boot lid that the bottom hinge /tie didnt seem to hold the wings together very well.
The play on the wheel bearing is not huge - it took some effort to rock the wheel- but it may be the straw which broke the camel's back. I dont know whether these bearings can be tightened up or not?
So a lot to do!
Rob

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luli
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by luli » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:04 pm

In my case a wrong rear spring made one front wing to be higher than the other (3rd link). So pay attention to the rear springs.
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TonyG
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by TonyG » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:51 pm

Rob,

If you decide the rear springs need doing, I'd suggest buying replacements rather than having the old ones re-set. This is simply because it's easier to change the springs than have the car jacked up and dismantled while the old ones are sent away. Also you save the courier cost. I got mine made by Jones Springs. Not too expensive and they come with new bushes. I have written before in a post about changing rear springs but happy to talk through with you if you can't find it.

I don't think the rear bearings adjust. Changing them is a bit of a job if the oil seals need doing too and you will probably need use of a press to get them fitted onto the half shaft. Unless there is a lot of play or oil leaking I'd leavevwell alone!

Re the front wings; if yours are like my p2 12, they are supported on brackets that join into a U shaped central member, which is mounted on the chassis under the radiator in the centre only. I've not put mine together yet but this arrangement must allow the wings some movement. The tie bar must be to give some rigidity but I didnt know that this was how the wings were held in position. I assume that lifting one up would lower the other? A lot to expect of a small tie rod given what it would have to move though. Maybe this is something done during assembly which is why tightening it had little effect? I will find out when I do mine! I doubt very much this would cause your rear wheel to rub though.

Tony
Tony Gilbert

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P2 12 6 Light Saloon
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RobHomewood
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by RobHomewood » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:48 pm

Thanks Tony
With regard to the tie bar across the back of the radiator between the 2 wings this is also anchored/bolted to the radiator housing (see photo which shows one end of flat bar across rad and the eye of nearside adjuster bolt) so tightening up one side shouldnt raise the other wing UNLESS the radiator housing moves also. I shall have to check that bit myself but it was such a struggle to get all the bolts into place (I had the radiator surround off to relocate the copper fuel supply pipe around the bottom without joints and refitted the missing baffle plate) that I dont want to look at it again right now. I will have to because I could not get the bonnet leaves with even gaps afterwards as the radiator housing does seem to be out of square now!
regards
Rob
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RobHomewood
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by RobHomewood » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:42 pm

Well I ahve put the car up on axle stands as suggested and taken a crowbar to the springs. So far I have noted that the spring rear bush on both sides has noticeable movement horizontally. I shall look and see if it is possible to tighten this up. There is also a slight faint tyre rub mark on the offside as well, but by the dirt not recent.
Otherwise no obvious faults except that I have taken some measurements at strategic points each side with the car on the ground ie the height from the floor. As my garage floor slopes I have taken the measurements with the car pointing 'downhill' and then 'uphill' which gives slightly different heights and averaged the figures, This shows that at the front bumper the height is virtually the same both sides (2.5mm difference, not significant) and also at the front of the stepboard (zero, likewise). At the rear of the stepboard there is an average difference of 13/16" (20mm) with the nearside lower and also at the leading edge of the rear wing the average difference is 11/16" (17mm) which does begin to look significant.
I have found that I have 2 leaf springs with my spares but no information on them. Can anyone tell me how to tell the difference between front and back, left and right springs- if they are the correct 39 Rover type? Picture attached
Leaf Springs unkown provenance
Leaf Springs unkown provenance

RobHomewood
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by RobHomewood » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:15 pm

PS
Having dug a bit more I ahve found the page of spring dimensions - attached. I am flabbergasted by the number of different dimensions. Why on earth were they not rationalised abit?
Road Spring Dimensions All models 1934-47reduced.jpg

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luli
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Re: Tyre rubbing

Post by luli » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:29 pm

Both springs in the photo are front springs. The wedge at the bottom controls the castor, the center bolt points down, the two bushes are of the same size. (one is missing) The short part should be at the front.
Yes, tightening and adding washers may help but not necessarily if the pin, bush and shackles are worn.
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