I decided it was time to really check out the system following it's overhaul last year and about 1000 miles done.
Situation: The oil level has dropped, so the pump was working...and there was witness of oil - particularly towards the rear of the car. but I was not convinced that the Heineken Syndrome was in place (Reaching the places other etc...)
Action: Having acquired a Wanner oil/grease gun on the Bay of E I set about purging the system. I was pretty sure that the "drip feeds" were all clear, but there was air or congealed "lubricant" in the lines. Methodically (with a very competent assistant) we started to check the pipes. It became clear that the 90 grade oil was a bit thick for this , so the gun was filled with SAE 30 and nipples screwed into various places along the lines until clean oil came through. It took a bit of time (perhaps two and a half hours) but we got the system purged to our satisfaction, and topped up the reservoir with 90- working on the premise that the thicker oil would push out what was left of the 30 in the system.
We will see! Plenty of oil on the garage floor where it had not been before though!
A quick trip down the road suggested that the car had quietened down noticeably, and subjectively felt smoother! Maybe wishful thinking, but it was a good feeling!
We also removed the plug in the UJ and screwed in a tiny nipple (not as easy as you might think...)it didn't look as if it had seen fresh grease for 50 years! I left the nipple in situ as it was a B###er to swap back. I don't think it will upset the balance!
In view if recent water pump correspondence I checked mine for wear...all good. However the lubrication system had been disconnected to the water pump when the pump was replaced some years ago and a nipple put in place...what grease should be used? I seem to recall water pumps don't like being force fed too much grease?
Incidentally the car started " on the button" after a couple of turns of the starter (-6c outside the garage the night before!)
Back to Chassis lubrication
Re: Back to Chassis lubrication
Dear David,
I thought (and am quite prepared to be proved wrong) that the water pump was one of the places that should have oil going to it from the chassis lubrication system rather than being fed with grease. The later pre 1947 models have a spill pipe to deal with any overflow of oil into the pump. In rebuilding several systems I have tried to make sure that the delivery of oil from the Bijur system to the water pump is particularly reliable.
The next bit regarding the universal joints is a "Don't shoot the messenger" one. Hardy Spicer catalogue, pre 1953. "It is necessary to REFILL RACES WITH OIL (their capitals) on every replacement., and the manufacturers rely on the user to see that this is done. A good gear oil of 140 S.A.E.is recommended and suitable oils are listed below. (The reason for this, to paraphrase what comes next, is that the new joints were sent out dry from the works).
On no account should grease be used as this is liable to clog the oil passages (again, as written by them)
The list of recommended lubricants is most of the usual makes of the time but it does say both Shell 140 and Shell 140EP as well as some 200 and 250 grade oils too.
There are special long nipples for universal joints which make working with them straightforward and they can be left in place once fitted, something like these :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332942267564 ... R8z0tKa5YQ
I thought (and am quite prepared to be proved wrong) that the water pump was one of the places that should have oil going to it from the chassis lubrication system rather than being fed with grease. The later pre 1947 models have a spill pipe to deal with any overflow of oil into the pump. In rebuilding several systems I have tried to make sure that the delivery of oil from the Bijur system to the water pump is particularly reliable.
The next bit regarding the universal joints is a "Don't shoot the messenger" one. Hardy Spicer catalogue, pre 1953. "It is necessary to REFILL RACES WITH OIL (their capitals) on every replacement., and the manufacturers rely on the user to see that this is done. A good gear oil of 140 S.A.E.is recommended and suitable oils are listed below. (The reason for this, to paraphrase what comes next, is that the new joints were sent out dry from the works).
On no account should grease be used as this is liable to clog the oil passages (again, as written by them)
The list of recommended lubricants is most of the usual makes of the time but it does say both Shell 140 and Shell 140EP as well as some 200 and 250 grade oils too.
There are special long nipples for universal joints which make working with them straightforward and they can be left in place once fitted, something like these :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332942267564 ... R8z0tKa5YQ
Re: Back to Chassis lubrication
The water pump auto-lubrication had been disconnected by a previous owner. In view of your comment (and my question(!) I will put a line in from the system (now I know it works!) I have a suitable spare meter valve. Meanwhile a bit of benign neglect will continue!
Now about the prop shaft & UJ's. ...!
No messenger shooting! I have not seen that advice before...
BUT MY Rover Lubrication wallchart points firmly at the front UJ and says " Propeller shaft splines apply Castrolease Heavy Grease* with the grease gun at the nipple indicated" and it looks like it means the UJ...I have not found a grease nipple on the splines - I will look harder!!
They were fitted on the later split prop shafts I believe, but the chart, and my car, have a single shaft.
I have not checked the front UJ I now realise!.
* As used in the Hubs
Possibly the UJ had to be injected with oil through the plug hole? You do need a narrow adaptor for the grease gun. Fortunately I have s "baby" Tecalemit one...and was able to find a tiny nipple in my stock of accumulated bits and pieces. The grease did ooze out , so has clearly got into the Joint.
My 1956 Magnette certainly asks for the application of a grease gun (I think every 5000miles).
The handbook does not admit that the prop shat or UJ's even exist!
Now about the prop shaft & UJ's. ...!
No messenger shooting! I have not seen that advice before...
BUT MY Rover Lubrication wallchart points firmly at the front UJ and says " Propeller shaft splines apply Castrolease Heavy Grease* with the grease gun at the nipple indicated" and it looks like it means the UJ...I have not found a grease nipple on the splines - I will look harder!!
They were fitted on the later split prop shafts I believe, but the chart, and my car, have a single shaft.
I have not checked the front UJ I now realise!.
* As used in the Hubs
Possibly the UJ had to be injected with oil through the plug hole? You do need a narrow adaptor for the grease gun. Fortunately I have s "baby" Tecalemit one...and was able to find a tiny nipple in my stock of accumulated bits and pieces. The grease did ooze out , so has clearly got into the Joint.
My 1956 Magnette certainly asks for the application of a grease gun (I think every 5000miles).
The handbook does not admit that the prop shat or UJ's even exist!
Re: Back to Chassis lubrication
You'll have no difficulty in injecting your choice of lubricant into the spider with the correct nipple. The only thing that is needed is to turn the shaft until the aperture at the nipple is at its widest point (as the shaft rotates the uj yokes describe an ellipse rather than a circle) and this should be just the width to accommodate the outer part of the grease gun coupling. The shaft needs to be in exactly the right spot for this to happen but it does work.
Out of interest, I've dug out Newnes' "Motor Repair and Overhauling" from round about 1948, Volume 1, Page 591 - Hardy Spicer joints :
"Do not use grease in Hardy Spicer needle bearing joints, as this lubricant is liable to clog the oil passages. Use an oil to 160 SAE Specification."
I've reckoned for quite a long time that the lubrication chart makers got this one wrong, probably due to a lack of source information as Rover provided no little drawing of lubrication points for obvious reasons! I've dug out the Castrol chart for a Daimler 15, 1936 on, and it correctly shows Castrol D for the universal joint "splines" but doesn't mention the joints themselves. They're on the drawing but no arrows to either and this model also had a chassis lubrication system as with Rover, which also didn't feed the UJs. The 1947 Rover handbook says : "Propellor shaft - this needs no lubrication". This statement is repeated in the 1938 20 handbook, The 1935 Rover 14 handbook and the 1934 10 and 12 handbook says : Propellor shaft: This has one grease nipple at the forward end which should be greased every 1000 miles.
In Pearson's Rover maintenance volume, p205, it says : Reassembling shafts : "...reassemble the needle rollers in their races, using a smear of Vaseline to retain them in place and half fill the races with oil. "
Finally, in Blower's MG Workshop manual (as it's to hand!) the only reference is to the propellor shaft joints on the SA and WA being lubricated in a housing from the grouped lubrication nipples under the bonnet. They would, of course, have to be fed with oil.
Rover probably found that the joints rarely needed any further lubrication from new and it was probably more likely that they would be just replaced as part of a major overhaul. My guess would be that to mention them in the handbooks of the late 30s would be to admit there was something that needed lubricating underneath and it was a risk worth taking to preserve the "fully automatic" sales line. Maybe someone knows more fully? Has grease done anyone's joints any noticeable harm? While I would doubt it, I've gone back to 140 oil for all these joints and most chassis lubrication of shackle pins, king pins and the like.
Just because something's been printed or published, it doesn't make it correct. If you want a decent laugh, look up something like "Scottish inventor of the toaster" and then this :https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/the-reporters-63622746
Out of interest, I've dug out Newnes' "Motor Repair and Overhauling" from round about 1948, Volume 1, Page 591 - Hardy Spicer joints :
"Do not use grease in Hardy Spicer needle bearing joints, as this lubricant is liable to clog the oil passages. Use an oil to 160 SAE Specification."
I've reckoned for quite a long time that the lubrication chart makers got this one wrong, probably due to a lack of source information as Rover provided no little drawing of lubrication points for obvious reasons! I've dug out the Castrol chart for a Daimler 15, 1936 on, and it correctly shows Castrol D for the universal joint "splines" but doesn't mention the joints themselves. They're on the drawing but no arrows to either and this model also had a chassis lubrication system as with Rover, which also didn't feed the UJs. The 1947 Rover handbook says : "Propellor shaft - this needs no lubrication". This statement is repeated in the 1938 20 handbook, The 1935 Rover 14 handbook and the 1934 10 and 12 handbook says : Propellor shaft: This has one grease nipple at the forward end which should be greased every 1000 miles.
In Pearson's Rover maintenance volume, p205, it says : Reassembling shafts : "...reassemble the needle rollers in their races, using a smear of Vaseline to retain them in place and half fill the races with oil. "
Finally, in Blower's MG Workshop manual (as it's to hand!) the only reference is to the propellor shaft joints on the SA and WA being lubricated in a housing from the grouped lubrication nipples under the bonnet. They would, of course, have to be fed with oil.
Rover probably found that the joints rarely needed any further lubrication from new and it was probably more likely that they would be just replaced as part of a major overhaul. My guess would be that to mention them in the handbooks of the late 30s would be to admit there was something that needed lubricating underneath and it was a risk worth taking to preserve the "fully automatic" sales line. Maybe someone knows more fully? Has grease done anyone's joints any noticeable harm? While I would doubt it, I've gone back to 140 oil for all these joints and most chassis lubrication of shackle pins, king pins and the like.
Just because something's been printed or published, it doesn't make it correct. If you want a decent laugh, look up something like "Scottish inventor of the toaster" and then this :https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/the-reporters-63622746
Re: Back to Chassis lubrication
Brilliant! The toaster saga was a new one to me!
Of course I suppose all this became irrelevant with "sealed for life" bearings... with length of life not determined!
Oh well, I am not going to wash out the grease and replace it with oil...I don't think there was anything much there for a long time, so this is an improvement!
David
Of course I suppose all this became irrelevant with "sealed for life" bearings... with length of life not determined!
Oh well, I am not going to wash out the grease and replace it with oil...I don't think there was anything much there for a long time, so this is an improvement!
David